TRANSCRIPT – 2: She Studied the Blade
Hosts: Baily and Kabriya
00:00 KABRIYA: Hello, boneheads! Welcome to the second episode of One Flesh, One End, a Locked Tomb reread podcast!
Before we actually jump into this week's episode, this is just a quick note at the start to say that we are still losing our minds over the Nona the Ninth excerpt that was shared by Tor this week, but this episode was recorded before that came out, so you're not going to hear us talking about any of the new information or theories or anything at all that came up in that excerpt.
You also aren't going to hear any mention of anything from “As Yet Unsent,” which is the Judith POV short story which was released at the end of the Harrow the Ninth paperback last year.
We are going to be talking about both of these pieces of content in an upcoming bonus episode very soon, so you can stay tuned for that instead, but don't expect to hear anything about it this week.
There are lots of other fun things we'll be talking about this week, though, so let's get into that.
(Upbeat, driving electronic music)
01:11 BAILY: Hello, fellow boneheads! Welcome to One Flesh, One End, a Locked Tomb reread podcast. We'll be combing through Gideon the Ninth and Harrow the Ninth by Tamsyn Muir for all the context and clues we missed on our first read. I’m Baily,
01:25 K: And I'm Kabriya, and we're very excited to take a look through all the theories that we can't stop obsessing over while we wait for the very mysterious Nona the Ninth [Baily laughs].
01:34 B: Thanks for joining us on this journey through ten thousand years of history! We can't wait to spend more time with the characters putting the romance in necromancy.
(Upbeat, driving electronic music continues)
01:52 B: So, today we'll be covering what I'm calling the “training section” of Gideon the Ninth, from Chapter Four to Chapter Six. In this episode, Gideon is convinced to act as the cavalier primary of the House of the Ninth, and help Harrow become a lyctor. We get a Rocky-style cavalier training montage, and Gideon gets to say goodbye to the Ninth House – for real this time.
So, after her escape plan is thwarted, Gideon enters [laughs] what the TikTok teens would call her flop era. She loses motivation; she's hopeless; she sits around brooding in complete darkness.
02:22 K: Tremendously relatable opening paragraph to Chapter Four [Baily laughs].
02:25 B: So there's this one great line that says “She lay in her cell picking at life like it was a meal she didn't want to eat.”
And then she has one not-so-relatable line about how she spends her time “crunching her body into situps to make time go away,” which I don't find quite so relatable, because when I'm doing situps I find that time tends to go by… half as quickly.
02:43 K: I've literally never in my life done situps to make the time pass more quickly [both laugh]. There is such a long list of things I would do before that if I was lying around in my room feeling super depressed like Gideon, and situps would not be the thing.
02:55 B: So, Harrow shows up; they trade some jabs; she unlocks Gideon's door from the inside with a bone chip earring [laughs while looking at Kabriya’s notes].
03:02 K: I love this part because Harrow tells Gideon that she needs her for a job, and Gideon says there's literally only one job she would ever help her with, and then lists a bunch of elaborate ways she would help Harrow, like… fall on her own sword or, like, bungee jump into the Ninth house chasm.
03:16 B [laughing]: The drill shaft.
03:18 K: And she just – I think Harrow then corrects her and is like [derisive voice], ”that’s three jobs.” [Baily laughs].
But I think it's fun because it continues through this chapter too! There's just such a very real sense of how much they truly loathe each other when they're exchanging these jabs back and forth.
03:32 B: It’s so delightful.
03:33 K: We see a lot of talk of, you know, enemies-to-lovers as this popular trope, and I think a lot of times it gets used just when people are referring to like, anyone with any sort of rivalry at the beginning of a series or whatever.
And this is like legit a case, though, where they really hate each other and want each other to die [Baily laughs]. And I think it's beautiful! I think it's a lovely place to start with our characters.
03:54 B: But Tamsyn plays it for laughs so effectively, too, like, Harrow's entrance – from Gideon's perspective, she says that “Harrow’s acerbic little face was as welcome as a knee to the groin.” [laughs].
04:05 K: Yeah, these are pretty funny chapters, while Gideon is training and reluctantly getting suckered into going on this mission with her.
04:11 B: Yeah, the beginning of this book definitely, um, misled me into thinking that it wouldn't be kind of a redux of And Then There Were None, like, that kind of [both laugh] was kind of a surprise tonal shift.
04:22 K [laughs]: Did not see that coming. Absolutely. I always want to tell people that too, when I'm trying to recommend the book, but I'm like, I feel like because it isn't apparent from the beginning, just to say that it ends up being this murder mystery and you're trying to figure out, you know, who's done it in the house… I can never tell people that, but I wish I could.
04:37 B: They take this elevator down to the bottom of Drearburh, and then there's this one fun little moment where they pass some generators which Gideon says are ancient and no one knows how they run. And it's kind of, I think, maybe the first instance of seeing something that is modern to our eyes, but, you know, our expectations are sort of flipped.
And this comes up again later with the lab below Canaan House, which is modern to our eyes; it just seems like some normal lab facility – I mean, if you've ever been in a science lab or anything – but it's described as “ancient as the oldest levels of Drearburh.”
05:07 K: So, then they have to pick a weapon for Gideon to use. Of course, she doesn't realize that they're picking this out for her at first. She's just kind of hanging around while they sift through old swords, better described as archaeology items [Baily laughs].
And then, of course, Gideon does find out what they're really planning, which is that she will become the new cavalier in lieu of Ortus. And she is not hyped about this plan, to say the least.
05:32 B: Well, so, at first Aiglamene and Harrow are kind of just, like, talking to each other. They're debating what Gideon's off-hand weapon should be.
And it's this interesting moment where the author really throws us into this sword and duelling terminology, which really emphasizes how much this world sort of lives and breathes these duelling conventions – how much they're baked into everybody's understanding of the world.
But of course, to the readers, unless you have a really specific niche knowledge of, like, Renaissance weaponry, it's almost meaningless.
And yeah, so Gideon tries to leave. Harrow prevents her, and kind of says that… Gideon owes her because it was her shuttle who took her former cavalier away…
06:12 K: This does not go over well with Gideon [Baily laughs]. She was not a fan of Ortus being the one to leave on that shuttle!
06:18 B: Yeah. And so, she gives Gideon one of the old blades, which Gideon kind of dismisses. She's like [derisive voice], “The only way this kills someone is with lockjaw.”
And yeah, finally the plan is explicitly stated. Harrow says, you're going to act as cavalier primary of the Ninth House, and of course Gideon refuses, but Harrow keeps trying to convince her. She sort of seems to really have this conviction and religious fervour about the possibility of lyctorhood and promises Gideon “a fortune, a commission, anything you want.”
06:47 K: We also get a hint here of a bit more of Gideon's talent at swordplay when they start talking about how much training she would have to go under to be able to believably take the place of Ortus and have people not realize that this is not the role that she normally plays in the Ninth House.
Aiglamene says that she could train her in as little as three months to be up to the standard of “the meanest, most behind-hand cavalier alive,” which is too long for Harrow.
Harrow thinks it needs to move quicker, but I think even that alone, like, you're reading and you kind of get the sense that like, okay, she's actually quite good. It's not just, you know, her in her head thinking she's hot shit. She might actually be.
07:28 B: Well, it's funny. It reminds me of – okay, maybe this is going to be too obscure a reference, but remember Sarah Rees Brennan's, like, Drarry novel? Do you know what I'm talking about?
07:38 K: Like, her first series?
07:40 B: It's – ugh, what’s it fucking called. The one with like, Luke Sunborn, and there's this wall, and this, like, kid crosses it…
07:46 K: I don't think I've read any of her books. I know who you're talking about, but I have not read it.
07:50 B: Okay. I don’t even remember the protagonist’s name. This is not a very effective anecdote [Kabriya laughs]. But, basically, this scrawny kid crosses into this magical realm where everybody is like, you know, super-powered and magical.
08:01 K: We love to see it.
08:02 B: He makes good friends with, like, an elf and this, like, Chosen One kid, and they force him to keep up with them when they're doing exercise.
And then there's this moment where – to the reader it’s just hilarious because – the kid is like, yeah, they kept at me, and they were so disappointed when I could only run a 3:59 mile [laughs]. And the reader’s like… what the fuck? Like, a four-minute mile is such a huge athletic accomplishment [laughs].
08:26 K: Not to the standards of the elves in this magical world!
08:30 B: Yeah. Anyway, it was a similar moment to me when Aiglamene keeps – you know, she's not very kind to Gideon. She doesn't give any effusive praise. But it becomes clear that she is a very competent trainer.
08:43 K: Yeah. And she clearly thinks the Gideon is quite competent too, even if she's not going to be the most effusive and flowery with her praise.
00:50 B: She’s never going to say it [both laugh].
08:51 B: So, Aiglamene actually supports this plan, which is a surprise to Gideon, and Aiglamene and Harrow have this interaction where Aiglamene vouchsafes Gideon's freedom, which I think follows pretty directly from Aiglamene seeming to support Gideon's escape previously and thinking that Harrow was going to follow through on her deal, and then Harrow kind of showing that she was very happy to just leave Gideon [laughs] in the dust.
Yeah. So, Aiglamene gets Harrow to promise to set Gideon free after she performs as the cavalier primary, and they consider the matter settled, even though Gideon has not agreed.
09:29 K: Yeah, Gideon’s still there like… I have not agreed to this whatsoever… you are talking about this in front of me [both laugh]. But I do think that Gideon takes it a bit more seriously of note when Aiglamene also is asking Harrow to vouchsafe for her. I think that that starts to sway her.
09:42 B: Yeah. And she tries to leave once more. Yeah. She hasn't, like, fully agreed.
She tries to leave one more time and Harrow like, corners her against a pillow, and they share this – pillow, wow, Freudian slip – pillar [both laugh], and they share a charged moment where Gideon’s kind of angry and Harrow says, “I would have thought you'd be happy that I needed you. That I showed you my girlish and vulnerable heart.” And Gideon says, “Your heart is a party for five thousand nails.”
10:09 K: Incredible bants.
10:10 B: So, Harrow leaves, Aiglamene tells Gideon again that she should take this chance to leave the Ninth, and she sort of has this portentous dialogue moment, where she’s like –
10:19 K: It’s incredibly grim.
10:20 B [laughs]: Yeah! She's like… “Things are changing. I used to think we were waiting for something, and now I think we're just waiting to die.”
10:25 K: And I think it's also in this chapter, too, that she's just said something about how like – or maybe I'm mixing them now. She says, you know, even if you wait around here and die and then you're still going to be… working here, like you're still – you’re not not even getting carried off in a box, your skeleton will be…
It's alluded to that your skeleton is going to just keep working to serve the House of the Ninth. And how incredibly depressing is that, that you hate this place so much and you will literally never escape it. Even when you die.
10:50 B: Yeah. You’ve got to wait until your skeleton literally crumbles to dust.
10:53 K: So why not take door number two and see what lies on the other side? [Laughs]
10:57 B: So Gideon does agree to go, and Aiglamene ends the chapter by saying, “If I’m to turn you into the Ninth’s cavalier, I needed to start six years ago.”
And then Chapter Five and Chapter Six are both really quite short. When I was going through and sectioning the books up, that kind of seemed like a natural break, but they are really both kind of vignettes in a way. Like, Chapter Five starts with them in the library. Gideon is reluctantly painting her own face [laughs]
11:20 K: I love the face painting. I love how little interest Gideon has in keeping it up and how Harrow is obviously insisting on it. But I also just love that – I don't know if it even occurred to me when I was reading the book or afterwards, but just seeing all the fan photos of people dressed up in these costumes, like cosplaying these characters?
Obviously, this incredible face painting is such a good character element for these books that lends itself so well to art, and dressing up, and all these things, that I think it's super cool and fun, and… [mournfully] I want to have a party to go to, so I can paint my face like a skull!
11:54 B: Well, you know what? That actually brings up kind of an interesting point that I was going to touch on later, but – [laughs] I kind of wonder, like, did the author get that idea from, like – okay. I don't know to what degree you follow makeup social media trends? There was this huge trend –
12:09 K: Very little.
12:11 B: Oh, yeah [both laugh]. But on Instagram and YouTube there was this huge trend maybe… seven years ago or so, where everybody would do Dia de los Muertos, like, masks?
12:19 K: Okay, yeah, yeah.
12:20 B: Like, skull masks, as Halloween looks, and they were really popular. And there's this one big artist on Instagram who basically exclusively does fancy skull looks.
And of course, there was backlash because it's, you know, a bit appropriative to do specifically the Dia de los Muertos skull. But anyway, skull looks, very big on makeup… guru… spaces.
And then there's this line later on where Aiglamene’s giving Gideon off-hand duelling advice, and she says, “Remember now, your hands are sisters, not twins.” And I'm like, that's, like, eyebrow advice! That’s, like a really [dissolves into laughter]
12:49 K: Tamsyn Muir, tell us all your makeup thoughts! And what was your inspiration for this book?
12:55 B: Who are your famous [Note from Baily: I meant favourite] YouTube beauty gurus? What's your take on the Tati and James Charles video? [Both laugh].
13:02 K: Okay, I do follow trends enough to know what you're talking about here. Yeah.
13:06 B: So, they’re in the library, they've received this letter from the Emperor. They're going to be gathering on the First House and not on a space station, which is space for a little bit of necromantic lore dropping.
It's the first mention of thanergy, which Gideon calls “death juice.”
13:23 K: Love that. Love some death juice.
13:24 B: Which powers necromancy. And they're only allowed to bring themselves, so only the necro and the cav, no one else.
13:27 K: They're talking again about training and just kind of how they're going to pull off pretending to other houses that Gideon is a cavalier, and you can see that it really means a lot to Harrow that they're going to represent the Ninth House well, when they are with these other houses.
They can't let them know that, in Gideon's words, the house is “broke and nearly extinct, and Harrow's parents topped themselves,” until Harrow becomes a lyctor, which is obviously the goal of them going on this… quest, you might call it.
13:57 B: Yeah. And well, Harrow’s – one of Harrow’s – I don't know, lines that you don't really realize has any importance until you meet all the other houses. But she says, “I'm not going to let the Ninth House become an appendix of the Third or Fifth Houses,” which you kind of learn later on are like the rich and powerful houses.
14:15 K: Mhm. But it's interesting, too, because at this point we haven't met anyone from the other houses. We have no reason to know whether they are similar or dissimilar to anything going on in Ninth House.
14:25 B: It could all be like the Ninth House [both laugh].
14:26 K: Exactly. But there's an aside where Gideon is remembering all of the situations where she was prevented from talking to strangers as she was a child and how the Ninth House become more and more closed off from [over] time.
And I think that that does give a little bit of set up here in this chapter of the fact that Ninth House doesn't have a lot of contact with the other houses, and when they do end up meeting them, that's very apparent in the way that the other houses kind of view them as like this weird, closed-off, culty house [both laugh] in a way, that you come to realize is not the norm for the other houses.
14:56 B: Yeah. Like, I was totally willing to believe that every house was like the Ninth House.
14:59 K: Absolutely, yeah.
15:01 B: I was like, okay, this is a book about necromancy, of course everything's kind of decorated like an ossuary! [Laughs] But no. Some of the other houses are normal.
15:07 K: Just like, nine planets of people living in holes in the ground, going down into the crypts to pray with their skeletons and mummified parents. Like, I would have believed it.
15:18 B: But anyway, so Harrow gets fed up with Gideon's lackadaisical face painting and tries to sort of forcefully grab Gideon's chin and paint her face, and Gideon bites her [laughs].
And I noted here that – Kabriya, you haven't listened to the audiobooks, so maybe this didn't jump out to you quite as much, but Tamsyn uses probably… conservatively five hundred animal similes throughout this series? [laughs].
So this is one where, when Moira Quirk was narrating it, it really started to hit for me how many times this has come up. But the line is “With extreme reluctance, as of an animal not wanting to take medicine, Gideon tilted her face up to get painted.”
So Harrow paints her face – commands her to paint her face, and wear robes every day, and kind of reiterates that if she had any choice, she wouldn't be taking Gideon at all. Like, if she was the only one who had to go, she would happily go and succeed. But she'll succeed “with Gideon in tow,” and no one will ever know that there was anything wrong.
16:13 K: Yeah. Harrow also isn't really giving Gideon any further intel on what they're expected to encounter, or what's going to be expected of her. And dismisses her at the end of the chapter with the truly iconic line, “All you need to know is that you'll do what I say or I'll mix bone meal in with your breakfast and punch my way through your gut.” [Baily laughs]
Which, rereading this having read Harrow the Ninth, is just truly beautiful set up for –
16:36 B: It’s so good.
16:37 K: The wonders that are to come.
16:38 B: So then, in Chapter Six, the last chapter for this episode, we get kind of a training montage!
So, three months go by. Aiglamene teaches Gideon how to wield a rapier, which is a one-handed sword; it's got different positioning and footwork from what she's used to. She gets to train with the longsword when she does well, which is what she has to use for fun.
16:56 K: We love a heroine with a preferred weapon [both laugh].
17:01 B: She's forced to wear the skull face paint. She tries not doing it and Crux turns off the heating in her cell.
But sort of the one high point for Gideon is that she never has to really see Harrow or Crux. Harrow’s always in the library.
And then there's this kind of mysterious passage that I never really got. So, she orders Crux to do something secret “down in the bowels of Drearburh, where bowed and creaking Ninth brothers and sisters worked hour after hour at whatever grisly task Harrowhark had set.”
I don't know, is that supposed to be foreshadowing or setup for something? Or is it just like, here's how the house is going to work when she's gone? [laughs].
17:31 K: Yeah. Or like, Gideon just assuming that everything Harrow’s up to is like some grisly task down in the bowels of Drearburh [both laugh]. Like, I don’t know! I don't know either what that is supposed to refer to.
17:41 B: Oh well. And when Harrow does occasionally pop up, she basically just insults Gideon’s lack of progress, makes Gideon redo her face paint, and she and Aiglamene have Gideon practice walking around like the exact appropriate step distance behind Harrow.
17:54 K: Very like Prince Philip, which I'm now thinking of, like, all of those op-eds –
17:59 B [high-pitched, dying of laughter]: Necromancy jokes!
18:01 K: No, but, you know, there were all those things being like, oh, what a great Prince Consort he was, and like, he was so good at walking two steps behind the Queen his entire life! Like, what a man, what an icon.
And everyone was like, yeah, that's the job, like… he had to. [Derisively] What a show of deference, like, doing the royal custom set out for him. And now it's Gideon's turn to play Prince Philip.
Yeah. So, anyway, as this goes on, Gideon wants to know more about what they're walking into. Harrow is continuing to not tell her shit, and she only overhears one conversation between Harrow and Aiglamene about the competitors and what Harrow assumes will be a competition for lyctorhood, no matter how the Emperor has framed it [Baily laughs].
They mention the Third and Second Houses, specifically. Harrow dismisses them and says, “It's a grayer House I worry about. Anyone can learn to fight. Hardly anyone learns to think,” which is a lovely little set up to our Sixth House friends, which we will be meeting later.
18:57 B: Ahhh!
18:58 K: We love them.
18:59 B: I’m very excited. But yeah, finally, the day comes. It's finally time to leave. Gideon gets some crappy hand-me-down robes that were remade from Ortus’s stuff.
She notes that she made a secret compartment in her trunk to secretly bring her long sword, and she gets a rapier from Aiglamene. It's a plain black sword. Aiglamene reforged it from Ortus’s grandmother’s mother's sword. Again, I've been so trained by Tamsyn to see everything as foreshadowing that [laughs] I don't know if this is significant. I don’t think –
19:28 K [jokingly]: Who is Ortus’s great-grandmother? Do we need to know this lady? And will she be important in Alecto the Ninth? Jot it down!
19:36 B: I honestly have no idea. I don't think she's important, but literally every line has portentous implications.
Then, she finally gets an off-hand weapon, described as “knuckles,” which are basically brass knuckles, but they have, like, knives on the ends? And they're made of obsidian and steel.
19:51 K: Very cool.
19:52 B: I know! It seems rad as hell.
And she's confused because Aiglamene didn't let her train with an off-hand weapon, and Aiglamene basically gives her advice that's like, don't overthink your off-hand, and… don't let anyone see you fighting [laughs].
And then there's the phrase that I read. She's like, “Remember, your hands are now sisters, not twins.” I read that. I was like, yeah…
Oh, and again, yeah, Aiglamene fails to give Gideon any praise whatsoever [both laugh]. She says, “After eleven ghoulish weeks of training you, beating you senseless, and watching you fall around like a dropsical infant, you are, on a miraculous day, up to the standard of a bad cavalier, one who's terrible.” [both laugh].
20:29 K: Thanks, Aiglamene. Beautiful goodbye.
And then we get the goodbye that Harrow gives the Ninth House, an emotional goodbye as they're getting ready to leave on the shuttle. Gideon, on the one hand, has no fondness to what she which refers to as the “grey and monotonous population that had made up Gideon's life and never shown her one single moment of sympathy or kindness.”
B: So sad!
K: Very sad! Very rough start for our heroine here.
But we do see that she thinks Harrow might be crying. Gideon instantly dismisses the idea [Baily laughs], but again, this kind of takes us to, as a reader, wondering how much of Harrow's emotions are performed or legitimate, and how much of that is clouded by Gideon kind of assuming the worst of her at all times.
21:08 B [laughing]: Yes, she says, she's [Harrow’s] a “desiccated mummy of hate.”
21:11 K: Yeah, exactly. Harrow bids them goodbye, saying, “You are my beloved house. Rest assured that wherever I go, my heart is interred here.” And Gideon does note, “it sounded like she really meant it.”
21:24 B: And I just noted in that passage that [laughs] when you find out about the body and Harrow’s, like, secret love, it becomes a lot more interesting rereading this passage when Harrow says that her heart is “interred here.”
21:37 K: Literally… literally it is.
21:38 B: Literally buried [both laugh].
21:41 K: Harrow then also says that her parents have oh-so-conveniently decided to continue their penitence behind the door of the Locked Tomb until Harrow returns. So again, she just kind of keeps upping the stakes of, like, why her parents keep having to be more and more out of commission over the years.
And I think it's really funny that she's finally like, yeah, you're just not going to see them and they're going to go hide behind this rock. And that's a totally, totally normal thing that they're doing. Don't overthink it for a second [both laugh].
22:04 B: Gideon is really stoked to leave. She has a bit of a roller coaster of emotions, like, she looks back at the Ninth House, she sees Aiglamene saluting, and she realizes that she might never see Aiglamene again – which is almost certainly true because she [Aiglamene] appears in Harrow's River bubble in Harrow the Ninth, meaning that she is almost certainly dead.
And she realizes that she [Gideon] might never come back to the House of the Ninth. So initially, it's kind of unsettling, because she… for the first time is seeing the House as potentially changeable and fragile for the first time, as she's actually able to leave. But then that becomes sort of a vindictive happiness about the possibility of the Ninth House being destroyed.
22:41 K: We then also do get confirmation that Harrow is crying as they leave the Ninth House – a very different emotional journey to the one that Gideon is going on [both laugh].
Gideon realizes with “an unwelcome jolt” that she is crying and her paint is wet with tears. So there's another use of that skull paint! It’s very easy to see if you are crying. Not waterproof, not recommended for anyone who might want to discreetly shed some tears.
23:06 B: Although that is funny because it's described as “grease paint,” which is waterproof? Anyway, it doesn't matter. Who knows what kind of… dread pigments they're using in this universe [both laugh].
23:17 K: Give us the makeup tutorial specifically from...
23:21 B: “Get Ready With Me: Ninth House Anchorite Edition.” [Both laugh].
23:24 K: Yeah. Tasmyn, start your own YouTube. Give us the deets.
23:28 B: So we end this last chapter with them in the shuttle. Harrow's wiping her eyes, Gideon facetiously offers her a handkerchief [laughs], and Harrow says, “I want to watch you die.”
And Gideon says – oh, god! – she says, “‘Maybe, Nonagesimus,’ she said, with deep satisfaction. ‘Maybe. But I sure as hell won't do it here.”’ And then in our notes we both wrote… “Oof.”
23:48 K: Extremely off, extremely, exquisitely painful upon reread. Definitely just kind of flew over my head on first read! So, we love to open ourselves back up to… new pain on a reread.
24:03 B: Yikes, yikes, yikes.
(Upbeat, driving electronic music)
24:15 B: All right, today's fun game is a multiple! choice! word! guessing! game! [Kabriya cheers].
Because, one of the pretty wild things about these books [laughs] is that I actually learned several new words! You know, not trying to brag, but it's pretty rare that I learn new words [both laugh].
And, I genuinely learned quite a few new ones, even I think – what is it – six in just the first six chapters of this book, which is pretty wild.
So, I've created a fun multiple choice quiz for Kabriya [both laugh].
24:43 K: Another key difference between Baily and I is that when Baily comes across a word she doesn't know, when she's reading, she looks it up and thinks to herself, “Wow, I've learned a new word!” [Baily laughs].
And I definitely just kind of assume from the context and keep on plowing through. So I have not looked at any of these words, and I'm excited to see how well I do on this quiz.
24:59 B: To be fair, I – there are some that I was just like, okay, I'll run with this from context, like the word “oss.” It's like, okay, I think I can probably assume it has something to do with a grave or, like, a crypt, but yeah, while I was first reading Gideon the Ninth I had – I mean, it's pretty normal for me to have about 459 Safari tabs open on my phone on any given day [both laugh], but while I was reading these books, maybe 50% of them –
25:23 K: Not the full five hundred they allow you? Come on, Baily, keep up [both laugh].
25:25 B: About half of them while I was reading these books were new words, so it was pretty fun.
All right, word number one! And this one, unfortunately, is a bit of a trick. I'm sorry.
Word number one. Uncanorous: U-N-C-A-N-O-R-O-U-S.
Does this mean: A, chaotic, B, not musical, or C, gullible?
25:44 K: Oh, man. My gut instinct is going to be B, not musical, because you said it was a bit of a trick. It's – canorous, to me, I feel like there's a root there that is similar to something to do with music. But I also think that it… just sounds similar and it's mixing it up.
I'm going to go with chaotic. Just to… pick something chaotic.
26:01 B [gasps]: All right, we've gone with chaotic. In fact, your first instinct was right. It is B, not musical!
26:04 K: Damn! [Both laugh].
26:07 B: But the trick is that Tamsyn actually made this word up! It didn't exist before!
26:10 K: Oh!
26:11 B: If you Google “uncanorous,” all the results are like, Gideon the Ninth Google Books [laughs].
26:17 K: That’s why it had the little red squiggle line Google Doc! I see.
26:19 B: Mhm. The word “canorous” existed, and it means melodious or resonant, but “uncanorous” is new! A modern Shakespeare.
26:28 K: Copyright Tamsyn Muir.
26:30 B: Word number two. Fuck, I should have looked up how to pronounce this [laughs].
26:33 K: We're winging it, baby.
26:35 B: It's okay. I believe it's pronounced chevet [Note from Baily: I pronounced this wrong; it’s supposed to rhyme with duvet]: C-H-E-V-E-T.
So, does this mean, A, a point in the shape of a V, B, a robe worn by a priest or other minister, or C, a curved area behind the altar of a church?
26:49 K: I'm going to guess it's a point in the shape of a V.
26:54 B: [makes a terrible buzzing sound] Oh god, that was a horrible noise that just emerged from me. Unfortunately, you were thinking of “chevron.” [Both laugh].
26:59 K: Chevron, that’s what I’m thinking of, isn't it. Yeah.
27:01 B: A chevet is a curved area behind the altar of a church, specifically the eastern end of a church and specifically a Gothic church.
27:08 K: Very specific.
27:09 B: So, beginning in the 12th century, Romanesque builders began to – this is directly from Encyclopedia Britannica – “began to elaborate on the design of the area behind the altar, adding a curved ambulatory.”
27:24 K: Ooh. You learn something new…
27:25 B: Yeah, there are quite a few architectural terms in these chapters!
All right, word number three. Serried: S-E-R-R-I-E-D.
Does this A, describe a rippled pattern on the edge of a blade, B, describe rows of people who are close together, or C, describe a piece of fabric which is not in good repair?
27:42 K: All right, before I do my guess, I am just going to point out that it just came to my attention just now that one good way to make guesses would be to think of… words and scenes that came up in these chapters –
27:52 B: Yes [laughs].
27:53 K: And whether any of the options you're presenting me with sound like something that we encounter [laughs].
27:55 B: I tried to make them ambiguous in that way! [laughs]. Because I was like, “Maybe she'll remember the context.”
28:00 K: I'm going to go with the rippled pattern on the edge of a blade, though, because this feels like a sword word to me.
28:05 B: [makes the horrible sound again and laughs] Sorry.
28:07 K: Zero for three!
28:09 B: “Serried” is an adjective used to describe rows of people who are close together, like in the sense of an army.
28:15 K: Okay!
28:16 B: Yeah. And she uses it to describe the “serried ranks” of the congregation filing out of the… sanctuary.
28:22 K: Oh, okay. Well, I'm learning new army words! There's always opportunities to use those in my regular vocabulary [both laugh].
28:29 B: All right, we're already half done! Word four. Recreant: R-E-C-R-E-A-N-T.
Does this mean A, a coward, B, a lazy person, or C, a creative person?
28:41 K: I’m going to go lazy person.
28:43 B [gasps]: Very close but no! It's a coward!
28:45 K [laughing]: “Very close, but no.”
28:48 B: Well, that's actually what I thought it was when I first read it. That was my sort of guess from context, but no.
So, Harrow uses this to describe Ortus when he is reluctant to act as her cavalier.
All right, our fifth word, “catarrh,” not to be confused with the country enslaving foreign labourers to build stadiums for the 2022 World Cup, which it bribed FIFA into gaining the hosting rights to. It's spelled C-A-T-A-R-R-H.
Is this A, an oil used for religious rites, B, an inflammation of the throat, or C, an ornate rug?
29:18 K: Let's say… an oil used for religious rites?
29:22 B [gasps]: No, it's an inflammation of the throat!
29:24 K: I'm going to get through all of these and not get a single one. But it's fine! We're just going with our gut. Our gut is wrong. This is an important exercise in learning to fail [both laugh].
B: We love to learn. So this is, like, basically the medical excuse that Sister Glaurica always gives for Ortus not being able to do anything. She's like, “he has the catarrh!”
Which is – I think Tamsyn maybe just Googled, like, “gross old-timey diseases.” It's excessive discharge or build up of mucus in the nose or throat associated with inflammation of the mucous membranes [both laugh].
29:53 K: Hate that. No, thank you.
29:56 B: All right, our final word! Prolix: P-R-O-L-I-X. Sixth time’s the charm with this quiz [laughs].
29:59 K: Is it. Is it?
30:00 B: Does prolix mean, A, close together, B, an architectural protrusion where a wall meets the ceiling, or C, overly wordy?
30:13 K: Okay. My gut is saying it's either the architectural protrusion or overly wordy, which means I'm sure you're going to turn around and say that, no, it actually means close together [Baily laughs].
But I'm going to go… I'm going to go with… overly wordy!
30:28 B [squeals]: You actually got it right!
30:30 K: Yes. What a finale! Finally, last word. Squeak of honour.
30:33 B: Yes. So this comes up where Gideon’s saying that the Emperor's second letter is “less prolix than the first.” Prolix is using or containing too many words; tediously lengthy [laughs].
30:46 K: Great words to know. That one I will use.
30:49 B: I know. I love it.
(Upbeat, driving electronic music)
B: All right, so today's discussion segment is about Catholicism in these books, both sort of the aesthetics and parallels that the author might have been trying to draw.
And just to start off with sort of where we are in terms of our lives and Catholicism, I was raised Catholic, my mom's family is Irish Catholic, I went to church every Sunday until I was maybe… twelve or thirteen? I did my First Communion, I did my Confirmation, my sister and most of my cousins went to Catholic schools.
But I actually left the church when I was 18. Like, I wrote to my bishop and everything, in a very dramatic fashion [laughs]. So I'm no longer a Catholic.
31:41 K: And I have just written “No,” with a little heart emoji –
31:45 B [laughing]: None of the above!
31:46 K: To demonstrate my opposing experience, which is that I believe the only times I ever entered a church in my adolescence or even now were like, when other people in my family were getting christened, or had died and there was a funeral or something, or like… I did a chess camp at a church, maybe one summer or something like that [both laugh]. I don't know.
That's pretty much it. I have no familiarity with Catholic – I can't even pronounce it. I have no familiarity with Catholicism, uh, it's taken me about three takes to pronounce that correctly [both laugh], and also very little familiarity with how it differs from other sects of Christianity.
So, my knowledge going into Gideon the Ninth to look for any of these parallels was not very expansive. But I have been finding it very very interesting reading up on things that other people have pointed out about some of the parallels that you might want to point to, if you were so inclined.
32:42 B: Well, yeah. And honestly, that was kind of my attitude towards it reading through it – I was almost like, well, yeah, [derisive voice] fucking obviously, like, the bone prayer beads are rosaries. Like, I get it, thanks. And almost, like, it was written with an appreciation for the aesthetics of Catholicism, and… I was kind of like, yeah, I get that some people are into that, but not me, really.
So I wasn’t – while reading, I was not probing the text for… allegory [laughs]. But it was interesting for me to read through some things that other people have put together. Specifically, there was a post by Tumblr user ac1d [now koschei] which went through quite a few of the things we're going to discuss, a Reddit thread that we will link in the show description and also an article on Tor.com about Catholic themes in this series.
But yeah. So, I've divided this discussion up into three categories, so we'll just start with the Ninth House specifically, which is really governed by Catholic imagery.
Like I said, their bone prayer beads are essentially rosaries. And if you don't know what those are, they are necklaces with specific beads that correspond to specific prayers like the Lord's Prayer, or Ave Maria [Hail Mary]. And, my mom and her siblings [laughs], they actually used to pray the rosary to pass the time on long car trips, because it takes a really long time.
33:58 K: Instead of just pointing out the window every time there was a horse going by. [Note from Baily: to be honest they probably did this too, because they grew up in a place where there are a lot of farms. Love you, Mom!]
34:02 B [laughs]: Yeah, over playing, jeez, I don't know, “I Spy,” or whatnot.
34:05 K: No, I definitely did… I will say, I did get that connection on first read of the Ninth House and sort of the very, Catholic – again, probably in my head it was Catholic, Christian, all of them – imagery with the bone prayer beads, with the sort of the ceremony and all that taking place, and clearly some sort of church-like room in the crypt. That, I think, was very clear to me.
And also the way that just Harrow speaks to her – to the Ninth House members with a sort of religious-like devotion, and the way that you see the kind of assembled audience very much felt like being in a church. And so, I think that that was very clear, even as someone with very little familiarity to any of this.
34:48 B: Yeah, well, speaking of the church, we were saying earlier that we learn a lot of architectural terms in this chapter, and some of the really specific ones that are used here to describe the sanctuary as essentially a Romanesque church, so, a Catholic church from the 11th and 12th centuries.
She uses terms like “transept” and “apse.” So, for example, the transept is specifically the part of a church that makes it cruciform, or cross-shaped, and it's really strongly associated with Romanesque and Gothic Catholic churches.
And then also there are a couple of other interesting things. So, the Ninth House's religion is later on shown to be, you know, shockingly different from the religion practiced elsewhere in the Nine Houses.
So, there's this whole passage where Harrow’s asked to pray when they arrive at Canaan House, and Gideon has sort of a shock where she sees the expressions on the faces of all the other – the scions of all the other houses. And [laughs] she describes them as bewildered, blank, long-suffering, or, in at least one case, openly hostile – three guesses who that is [laughs].
But yeah, so it's almost seen as idolatry or heresy by other houses. And that's sort of similar, if maybe exaggerated, to how Protestant sects of Christianity view Catholicism.
Harrow has this prayer that's common on the Ninth that is very different from the prayer that everybody else has. And it’s – I'm not going to read the prayer [laughs], but it has some interesting parallels that we'll discuss later on.
Yeah, so just three more things about the Ninth House. First, there's this sort of worship of the body and the Locked Tomb, which calls to mind the Catholic tradition of veneration of relics – or the bone remains of saints – which are often claimed to have been miraculously preserved, or “incorruptible,” which is the way that the Body is described, right? Like, beautiful and completely preserved, even in death.
[Note from Baily: Also Gideon’s corpse in “As Yet Unsent,” but we hadn’t read that yet!]
And this [the veneration of relics] comes up again, actually, in Gideon's name. So I didn't know this, but from the Tor.com article, apparently Gideon is a Biblical figure who destroyed icons of other religions, and his story was used by Protestants as a teaching tool when they fought against the Catholic use of saints’ relics in worship. That's kind of an interesting source, like, we know that Tamsyn thinks really thoroughly through all of her names.
37:12 K: So Gideon is sort of being positioned here as someone… in opposition to the sort of Catholic Church allegory of the Ninth House, if that’s where they want to run with that.
37:20 B: Yeah, it's funny because if you really think through all the metaphorical implications of the name [laughs], it's almost like… a negative. So it's possible that this is just a coincidence and Tamsyn just liked the name Gideon. It’s a good name.
[Note from Baily: No, it’s clear from the paperback Harrow the Ninth extras that she did intentionally pick this Gideon, who defeated the Midianites in the Book of Judges, as the source for Gideon’s name.]
And then to go further in on things to do with Catholicism that are not common in other branches of Christianity, there's also this idea of Catholics worshiping the Virgin Mary as equal to God, which is definitely a simplification, but I think that is something that's sort of being paralleled with the Ninth House? Like, the Eighth House sees the Ninth as an aberration, it was never meant to exist forever, they hate the way that they worship the tomb in the same way as Emperor…
From that Tumblr post I was discussing, one of the things I found very interesting was this quote: “At one point, John tells Harrow, ‘In a very real way, you and the others are A.L.'s children.’” And this person goes on to say, “If John wants to characterize A.L. as the mother of necromantic humanity, then I'm definitely going to analogize between the Ninth House worshipping her tomb, Catholics venerating Mary, and outsiders hating our guts for it.” [Laughs].
38:26 K: Seems fair!
38:27 B: But again, that assumes that A.L slash Alecto is the one in the Tomb, which is a question mark. Okay, and speaking of Alecto, the Locked Tomb and the rock that must never be rolled away also parallel the rock in front of Christ’s tomb that was rolled back on the day of his resurrection. The tomb will open, dot dot dot!
38:41 K: [Sings a little ominous jingle]
38:42 B: And yeah, I do recommend the Tor.com article. It's a little bit flowery, but it has some interesting points. So, the one that I've highlighted here is “Muir has created a minority religion. An othered space Catholicism that centers on a tomb that must stay locked in order to protect humanity from the resurrection of monster.” It's kind of like, a goth inversion [both laugh].
39:06 K: No, that’s fun. Now. Our next big point for the – oh god, I’m – literally, this is teaching me that I don't know –
39:13 B [laughing]: Just call it the religion section!
39:15 K: Our next point in the religious analogy of the books is Gideon's positioning as a Christ figure, which I will say is also something that – one of the more obvious things to me coming into this with not a lot of religious background, that, you know, you get someone who dies at the end [laughs], sacrificing themselves, immediately after forgiving someone else, as we’ll get to. And I think that the parallel kind of leaps out at you.
39:46 B: I think also… it seems to have been intentional on the part of the author. There's this note in the pronunciation guide at the end of Gideon the Ninth under Isaac's name, like, of all people [laughs], where she says “Note: Isaac in Christian theology foreshadows Jesus's death by taking the wood for his own sacrifice up a mountain [Note from Baily: Jesus was crucified on a wooden cross which he had to carry up Calvary’s mountain]. Isaac here foreshadows Gideon's death by doing the bravest and stupidest thing, i.e. getting his abdomen made into a huge Connect Four board [i.e. pierced with spikes, similar to the fence that pierces Gideon].
40:09 K: So, yeah, that's pretty direct, I would say, with the Jesus equals Gideon comparison being made right there [both laugh]. Bless the pronunciation guide, which I definitely never read.
40:20 B: Well, I'm actually not sure it's in my digital epub! I had to look this up on Google Books. I don't even know. Maybe it's like a later edition or something [Note from Baily: It is from the paperback, lol]. Oh well, whatever.
So, the sacrifice part, obviously something that kind of jumps out at you. Her side is pierced; Pontius Pilate stabbed Jesus with a spear to make sure he was dead [Correction from Baily: No, this was the Roman centurion Longinus, but you get the idea]. The astute reader – not me [laughs] – might have made that connection.
Jesus is resurrected on the third day following his death, and that also seems to be the passage of time where Gideon surfaces in Harrow's body after she's killed by, you know [laughs].
[Note from Baily: This is based on a very wonky reading of time on Harrow’s part, but I was referencing Harrow the Ninth, Chapter 45: “So many months had passed: and yet, at the same time, she had only lost Gideon Nav three days ago. It was the morning of the third day in a universe without her cavalier: it was the morning of the third day…”]
And Harrow finds the Tomb empty [at the end of Harrow the Ninth] in somewhat the same way as Mary Magdalene finds Jesus’s tomb empty, except in Gideon's case, uh, there is… porn, and a sword in there [both laugh].
K: A slight inversion of the famed story.
B: And there are a couple more things. So, Gideon gets a quote unquote “virgin birth.” [Laughs]. She's conceived and implanted without any involvement between God and Wake.
And, Gideon the First is sort of a Joseph figure, right? Like, he thinks Gideon the Ninth is his daughter. And, in Catholic tradition there is this idea of dual paternity with Joseph and God, um… It doesn't really matter why, to be honest [laughs], but it's paralleled here. I was going to go into it. I don't care.
41:45 K: It's a thing. That's all you need to know.
41:47 B: Then there's this other episode from Gideon's early life, which is very similar to the Biblical Massacre of the Innocents, which was straight-up stolen from the story of Moses [laughs].
So, you might be familiar with the massacre of Hebrew infants by Pharaoh. It was basically copy-and-pasted into Jesus’s life story by Matthew. So, in the Gospel of Matthew, Herod executes all the baby boys of Bethlehem after hearing that Jesus had been born, and Jesus is the only survivor.
So, this is a lot like Gideon with the nerve gas killing the children to create Harrow, and it's generally considered to be completely fictional [both laugh], but it seems like that was also an intentional parallel.
42:26 K: But in this case, it really happened.
42:28 B: Yeah. Sad.
42:30 K: R.I.P. babies.
42:32 B: And then I briefly mentioned the Temptation of Christ in the last episode, but it's essentially… it’s this biblical narrative that comes up in three of the Gospels. So, after being baptized by John the Baptist, Jesus fasts in the desert for forty days and forty nights, and Satan comes to tempt him three times.
So, metaphorically, Gideon's upbringing in the Ninth House could very well be this suffering in the desert. And then as Gideon is trying to escape, she gets a visit from Crux, and Aiglamene, they both tempt her.
The third temptation actually really parallels Jesus's third temptation, where Harrow comes and offers Gideon a commission in the Cohort – so everything worldly that she could ever want – and this parallels the Devil taking Jesus to a place “where all the kingdoms of the world can be seen” and offers him dominion over the whole Earth. And Jesus refuses. But [laughs] Gideon actually does fall for the temptation, and gets her ass kicked for it.
43:20 K: And then we do also see, going back to the themes of forgiveness that I was talking about at the opening of this, that Gideon really agonizes over everyone's deaths at Canaan House and also over Harrow's parents’ deaths, and basically blames herself for a lot of the death in her life that is happening around her, and kind of takes responsibility onto herself.
But, most importantly, Gideon forgives Harrow for everything before she ultimately sacrifices herself at the end, which you could read, I guess, as a parallel to Christ’s sacrifice, uh, “atoning for all of humanity’s sins and redeeming mankind,” which I'm reading from these notes here because I am not super familiar with it [both laugh]. I know he died. I know he forgave us.
B [politely but skeptically]: Yeahhh.
44:02 K: And, yeah, so, Harrow says at the end, “‘Nav,’ she said, ‘Have you really forgiven me?’” And Gideon says, “Of course I have, you bozo.” Harrow says, “I don't deserve it.” And Gideon says, “Maybe not, but that doesn't stop me forgiving you.”
So, I think that that is also a really clear and important beat, that we have not only this death at the end, but that it's immediately preceded by this moment of forgiveness.
44:25 B: Yeah. And forgiveness, you know, regardless of whether or not you deserve it.
44:28 K: Yeah.
44:29 B: Moving on from just Gideon, the final place where we can see some… religious parallels are with the process of lyctorhood, and then meeting God in Harrow the Ninth in general.
So, before we get to lyctorhood, there's this kind of interesting sequence in the epilogue of Gideon the Ninth where Gideon quotes the Bible, from Ruth, to Harrow at the very end, just before she fades out of Harrow's consciousness.
She specifically says, “The land that shall receive thee dying, in the same will I die: and there will I be buried. The Lord do so and so to me, and add more also, if aught but death part me and thee.” And from the Reddit post that we will link, the very astute author noted that this translation is unique to the Douay-Rheims Bible, which is a 16th and 17th century Catholic Bible.
45:21 K: Love the attention to detail. Thank you [both laugh].
45:23 B: And then she says, “It's interesting, of course, that death does the opposite of part them,” which I thought was a really great point.
It's also notable that this passage from Ruth is a popular wedding vow, which is fodder I'm going to use for people who don't think that this book is about a romantic relationship [laughs].
45:37 K: They exist? Really?
45:38 B: Not only is it a popular wedding vow, but also Ruth is saying this to her female companion, Naomi, in the Bible.
But yeah. So, kind of going back to the whole idea of lyctorhood, one of the steps of ascending to lyctorhood requires eating part of the cavalier's flesh.
45:55 K: Gross.
45:56 B: Yeah [laughs], exactly. And from the same Reddit post, the author points out that lyctorhood, which is everlasting life of a kind – the non-perfect version – requires eating the body and slash or blood of your cavalier.
So this really echoes Catholic Communion, which – if you're not familiar with it, it's a Sacrament during Mass where Catholics receive the Eucharist and eat bread and wine – or, Communion wafers and wine [laughs] – which, according to Catholic belief, are literally transformed into the body and blood of Christ.
This is transubstantiation; it's one of the theological points that distinguishes Catholicism from other forms of Christianity. And I just, I mean, personally find it very uninteresting. Can you imagine… you know, all the wars that have been fought over whether or not the bread and wine are literally transformed into the body and blood of Christ? Anyway, I digress [laughs but kind of like… in an upset way].
So, during the Mass, the priest consecrates the Eucharist. He recites the story of the Last Supper. And… I've kind of fully written it out in the notes, but, if you're Catholic, you know it; if you're not Catholic, it doesn't really matter [laughs].
46:57 K: If you know, you know.
47:01 B: He takes the bread and he says to his disciples, that… eat this, it's literally my body, which will be given up for you. And he gives the wine to his disciples and says, “This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting Covenant, which will be poured out for you and for many, for the forgiveness of sins.”
47:20 K: Very goth [both laugh].
47:22 B: I think that's one of the things that people really latch onto with Catholic imagery, like, this whole extremely goth idea of literally eating the body and blood of Christ.
But the really important part about this is that in John, there's this quote from Jesus that goes, “Truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life,” which I saw glossed elsewhere as “Whoever eats this bread will live forever.” I think that might be from a different passage…
But, overall, there's this link between everlasting life, aka lyctorhood, and this communion, the consumption. So, it's implied that Harrow literally eats the literal body and blood of this Christ figure, and it confers eternal life onto her.
And then, beyond just the concept of lyctorhood, the books really center on this narrative of an actual living God and his saints, and, you know, they all live together in the Mithraeum. And I'm going to quote again from the Reddit post here because I think this is a great point: “The whole concept of the chosen rising to dwell eternally with God is pretty dang Christian!”
48:31 K: Pretty dang, like, wanting to live on a commune with all your friends [both laugh]... millennial, Gen, Z, whatever, collective desire fueling us all every day. So, here we go. Now here is something I can relate to in this religion section!
48:47 B: Is that heaven? Is that what Philip Pullman meant when he said you have to build the King – the Republic of Heaven on earth? You have to live in a commune with all your friends? [Both laugh].
48:54 K: Yes. Philip Pullman said, drive half an hour out of the city you live in, buy an old farmhouse with your ten closest friends –
49:02 B: And raise some goats! Yeah.
49:03 K: Raise some goats and you'll be happy.
49:06 B: And then… God's name is John. And this specific person [u/18342772 on Reddit, from the same post as above] likened that to John the Baptist, and he baptizes Harrow by immersing her in a river.
And I think that's an interesting point, but I also kind of think that the name John is just kind of supposed to be a joke, like, it’s just such a normal name!
49:25 K: Pretty plain name. Here’s God! His name is John [both laugh].
49:30 B: Exactly. So I don't know how much to take away from that, but it is an interesting observation.
And then finally – and this leads to sort of the very interesting scene with God at the end of Harrow the Ninth, where his existence is tied to the existence of the Nine Houses, right? So, another quote, “The universe is, in a sense, as argued by Aquinas and others, contingent on God's perpetual outpouring of creation.” And I thought that was phrased really well.
So, this person is talking about Saint Thomas Aquinas, who was a 13th century Catholic priest and philosopher. And yeah, God, essentially, he resurrects this system, making Gideon kind of a figure of the Second Coming of Christ. And he has to continually pour energy into his creation or it's going to be destroyed, like, the sun almost explodes – according to him – when he's briefly dematerialized by Mercy. So he… essentially powers the necromantic universe.
50:27 K: I'm just thinking now about the end of Harrow the Ninth and us talking about Philip Pullman a second ago. And there's got to be some Goodreads list out there of like, fantasy books where we try to kill God [both laugh]. Who's putting that together?
50:44 B: Oh my god, it’s so true. I can't think of any others off the top of my head, though.
50:46 K: Well, someone should get on it. It's a short list but it's a good list [both laugh].
50:50 B: I'm thinking of that screenshot from Wikipedia, like, the list of serial killers. “This list is incomplete. You can help by expanding it.”
50:57 K: Help us by expanding it!
(Upbeat, driving electronic music)
51:09 B: All right, are we ready for Bone of the Week?
51:12 K: Bone of the Week!
51:13 B [clapping]: Bone! of! the week!
51:15 K: Let's do it.
51:16 B: So, there are some pretty prosaic bones mentioned in Chapters Four to Six –
51:20 K: Best kind of bone. That’s what I always say [both laugh].
51:23 B: but I figured Kabriya would know all of them. So, since it's my turn this week to do Bone of the Week and get Kabriya to rate and review the bone, I figured I'd go back to Chapter Two and pick a bone that originates there. Fuck, I should have looked at how to pronounce this too [laughs].
51:42 K: Just wing it. I'm not going to know it either way.
51:43 B: I'm going to go with my instinct. Okay, so, the bone of the week is the scaphoid. Where do you think it's located?
51:51 K: Do I get a – Can I get a spelling?
51:52 B: S-C-A-P-H-O-I-D.
51:56 K [pensively]: S-C-A-P-H-O-I-D. Scaphoid. I'm like, I'm imagining something in the torso… which is not… I first thought limb and then I went, no –
52:08 B: It's like… hockey injuries. Like, “upper body.” [Both laugh]. As vague as possible.
52:11 K [laughing]: Yeah, can I be that vague? Can I be like, “it is an upper body bone.”
Um, I'm going to say something in, like, the chest… area. Well, those are your ribs. There's got to be more, though. There's got to be more specific bones than that. I don't know anatomy at all. This is the problem that we're running into now that it's my turn.
52:31 B: You're going with chest.
52:32 K: I'm going to go with chest… area. Yeah.
52:35 B: I think that's actually reasonable! There's a bone in the chest called the xiphoid process, which is kind of similar, but it's not the scaphoid, unfortunately. The scaphoid is like – if you feel for the heel of your hand, it's kind of like that little bone right in there? Not the pointy one actually in the wrist, but, like, the heel of the hand bone.
52:51 K: Okay. Wow, so many hand bones.
52:54 B: I know. So Wikipedia calls it a large carpal bone, or, sorry – whatever. It doesn't matter who calls it this [both laugh]. It's a large carpal bone articulating with the radius below the thumb.
And Wikipedia [this time it is from Wikipedia] says it's approximately the size and shape of a medium cashew [laughs].
53:11 K: Ew!
53:12 B [cackling wildly]: So now you have to rank its sexiness with that knowledge.
53:14 K: Oh, man. Okay, I'm going to give that, like, a one. That is bad. I was into the hand bone thing, but I don't like thinking about a little cashew floating around in my palm.
It's like when people talk about pregnancies and they’re like, “The embryo is the size of an almond.” I hate – I don't know why, I just find that so…
53:32 B: Off-putting.
53:33 K: I don't like imagining other non-body objects being inside your body [Note from Baily: lol]. I think that's what it is for me. No, thank you. I'm going to give that a one.
53:42 B [laughs]: Got it.
(Slow, groovy rock music)
53:47 K: All right, well, thanks for learning some new words and new bones with us this week! We certainly had fun. Please, you can find us… [laughs]. Please.
53:58 B [laughing]: Please! Please, you can find us, please!
53:59 K [laughing]: Please find us! Plese come find us!
You can find us, if you would like, at onefleshonepod on Twitter, TikTok and Tumblr, or reach out to us by email at onefleshonepod@gmail.com, if that happens to be your preferred method of correspondence [Baily laughs]. Personally, can't relate. But I promise I will check it anyway. Feel free to send questions. Send us your favorite conspiracy theories…
54:26 B: And, we'll see you next week on One Flesh, One End!
(Slow, groovy rock music fades out)